Comments on: Python 3.0: What’s The Point? http://jens.mooseyard.com/2008/12/python-30-whats-the-point/ Little boxes made of words, by Jens Alfke Thu, 11 Mar 2010 08:17:03 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.2 hourly 1 By: Leo Murch http://jens.mooseyard.com/2008/12/python-30-whats-the-point/comment-page-5/#comment-2884 Leo Murch Mon, 11 May 2009 05:44:33 +0000 http://mooseyard.com/Jens/2008/12/python-30-whats-the-point/#comment-2884 @DRY Further to your statements, I wish to add "Python has lame Optimization" and "Small Job market". Some mentioned in their sites, "Pythoneers Facing mid life crisis for job" Leo @DRY

Further to your statements, I wish to add “Python has lame Optimization” and “Small Job market”.

Some mentioned in their sites, “Pythoneers Facing mid life crisis for job”

Leo

]]> By: Lennart Regebro http://jens.mooseyard.com/2008/12/python-30-whats-the-point/comment-page-5/#comment-2883 Lennart Regebro Tue, 05 May 2009 04:50:34 +0000 http://mooseyard.com/Jens/2008/12/python-30-whats-the-point/#comment-2883 "However, this switch from 2.x to 3.0 means that the hours I’ve invested in learning Python have been largely wasted…" No, it doesn't. Python 3 is not another language. It's still the same language. "I don’t have time to learn new ways of doing old things (print x, print () wtf, wtp?) " See, you already HAVE learnt that difference. “However, this switch from 2.x to 3.0 means that the hours I’ve invested in learning Python have been largely wasted…”

No, it doesn’t. Python 3 is not another language. It’s still the same language.

“I don’t have time to learn new ways of doing old things (print x, print () wtf, wtp?) “

See, you already HAVE learnt that difference.

]]> By: Will S http://jens.mooseyard.com/2008/12/python-30-whats-the-point/comment-page-5/#comment-2882 Will S Tue, 05 May 2009 01:19:00 +0000 http://mooseyard.com/Jens/2008/12/python-30-whats-the-point/#comment-2882 I'm a geologist (used to be a programmer in the early 90s) and I've been dabbling in Python for a few months...programming isn't my primary function by any means. So far, I've bundled a few small programs in data releases. However, this switch from 2.x to 3.0 means that the hours I've invested in learning Python have been largely wasted...I don't have time to learn new ways of doing old things (print x, print () wtf, wtp?) At this pointed, I'm opting to retain Python at my current level for simple scripting and sharpening my Java for "real" programming. I need a *stable* language - I have too much to learn and keep up with to continually relearn programming languages. I'm probably not the only one. Personally, I don't think that Python is popular enough or transparent enough to maintain two separate versions that require two separate support packages. I’m a geologist (used to be a programmer in the early 90s) and I’ve been dabbling in Python for a few months…programming isn’t my primary function by any means. So far, I’ve bundled a few small programs in data releases. However, this switch from 2.x to 3.0 means that the hours I’ve invested in learning Python have been largely wasted…I don’t have time to learn new ways of doing old things (print x, print () wtf, wtp?) At this pointed, I’m opting to retain Python at my current level for simple scripting and sharpening my Java for “real” programming. I need a *stable* language - I have too much to learn and keep up with to continually relearn programming languages. I’m probably not the only one.

Personally, I don’t think that Python is popular enough or transparent enough to maintain two separate versions that require two separate support packages.

]]> By: DRY http://jens.mooseyard.com/2008/12/python-30-whats-the-point/comment-page-5/#comment-2881 DRY Sat, 07 Feb 2009 05:56:18 +0000 http://mooseyard.com/Jens/2008/12/python-30-whats-the-point/#comment-2881 >>>>>I think cheetahs are going extinct — limited genetic diversity Agreed for limited genetic diversity but atleast there are conservation efforts rather than wiping off. Python still doesn't have speed. So no conservation efforts. Language will get wiped off. >>>>>I am not overly worried about python 3.0, happy it is being done, and >>>>>will make my way over there on the slow train, after numpy etc. By then you expire from job DRY >>>>>I think cheetahs are going extinct — limited genetic diversity
Agreed for limited genetic diversity but atleast there are conservation efforts rather than wiping off. Python still doesn’t have speed. So no conservation efforts. Language will get wiped off.

>>>>>I am not overly worried about python 3.0, happy it is being done, and >>>>>will make my way over there on the slow train, after numpy etc.
By then you expire from job

DRY

]]> By: rich http://jens.mooseyard.com/2008/12/python-30-whats-the-point/comment-page-5/#comment-2880 rich Wed, 21 Jan 2009 19:26:51 +0000 http://mooseyard.com/Jens/2008/12/python-30-whats-the-point/#comment-2880 I think cheetahs are going extinct -- limited genetic diversity. I am not overly worried about python 3.0, happy it is being done, and will make my way over there on the slow train, after numpy etc. I think cheetahs are going extinct — limited genetic diversity.

I am not overly worried about python 3.0, happy it is being done, and will make my way over there on the slow train, after numpy etc.

]]> By: DRY http://jens.mooseyard.com/2008/12/python-30-whats-the-point/comment-page-5/#comment-2879 DRY Tue, 06 Jan 2009 08:59:20 +0000 http://mooseyard.com/Jens/2008/12/python-30-whats-the-point/#comment-2879 Dear All above, I pray Python 3.0 be made to have good "execution speed" urgently ! As a python user, I don't care for some small stupid corrections that bother the super brains of the language. I just need the following in python 3.0 and its related areas of applicability: a) Speed b) Pyhton Browser plug-in like the JRE-plugin in all browsers for graphics Speed, Speed and Speed are important for me and majority others in application development area. I hate C code to be put in python and do a double job for speed. Thats why most people hate python. Even Psycho, pypy don't match Java 6 speed. Perl is still in market due to speed. Ruby 1.9 is thought to be faster than earlier versions. I tell u an animal story. Some animals in savannah survive by shear strength (king of beasts) , some survive at both own and other's strength, some survive by intelligence and speed, some by having great features that help them adapt to the conditions of savannah. Finally, there was one animal that had little physical power but was incredibly fast in catching its prey. This made it survive over a million years in savannah. That is none but Acynonyx jubatus(Cheetah). They have no fear of king of beasts due to their speed. In an analogy, I understand that Java is king of languages. Perl a Wild Dog (intelligence and speed), Python and Ruby as part-time scavengers - partly depend on C/Java in various applications, C/C++ as OS dependant fast languages (with features adapted for a particular OS) and now we want a language like the cheetah --> Enough power + speed. PHP filled that for web applications but what about non-web applications? Python is incredibly powerful language with smaller set of core language. It is slender and does most tasks what we want. Even though it is slender, it is suprisingly slow!!!! and most stupid authors of articles, write that --"optimize the algorithm first then identify the essential parts where there is a speed lag. Write those areas in C etc....". Do, we need two different animals to kill the same prey?? Do we need to Scavenge on JVM using Jython and/or JRuby. Where is the identity gone? Two languages cannot have a "equal symbiotic" relationship due to their different development policies. Why depend much on other languages?? Java did a right thing to bring all together to one platform and is ruling (better than C#) like a king. Python needn't fear java if it has faster run-time. As per animal rules, If python is not having speed nor highest power, it must survive due to a group. That is what I call python community. I will get back to python 3.0 only when its speed is near to Java 6. (Or atleast even if it's speed is twice slower than Java). Python is a gr8 language with many good features but success depends on speed !!Does this get to the brains of people developing python versions!! Quote: "You shudnot market urself much. Other's shud acknowledge that u r gr8" (This is what people call Java). Regards, DRY Dear All above,

I pray Python 3.0 be made to have good “execution speed” urgently !

As a python user, I don’t care for some small stupid corrections that bother the super brains of the language. I just need the following in python 3.0 and its related areas of applicability:

a) Speed
b) Pyhton Browser plug-in like the JRE-plugin in all browsers for graphics

Speed, Speed and Speed are important for me and majority others in application development area. I hate C code to be put in python and do a double job for speed. Thats why most people hate python. Even Psycho, pypy don’t match Java 6 speed. Perl is still in market due to speed. Ruby 1.9 is thought to be faster than earlier versions.

I tell u an animal story. Some animals in savannah survive by shear strength (king of beasts) , some survive at both own and other’s strength, some survive by intelligence and speed, some by having great features that help them adapt to the conditions of savannah.

Finally, there was one animal that had little physical power but was incredibly fast in catching its prey. This made it survive over a million years in savannah. That is none but Acynonyx jubatus(Cheetah). They have no fear of king of beasts due to their speed.

In an analogy, I understand that Java is king of languages. Perl a Wild Dog (intelligence and speed), Python and Ruby as part-time scavengers - partly depend on C/Java in various applications, C/C++ as OS dependant fast languages (with features adapted for a particular OS) and now we want a language like the cheetah —> Enough power + speed.
PHP filled that for web applications but what about non-web applications?

Python is incredibly powerful language with smaller set of core language. It is slender and does most tasks what we want. Even though it is slender, it is suprisingly slow!!!! and most stupid authors of articles, write that —“optimize the algorithm first then identify the essential parts where there is a speed lag. Write those areas in C etc….”.
Do, we need two different animals to kill the same prey?? Do we need to Scavenge on JVM using Jython and/or JRuby. Where is the identity gone? Two languages cannot have a “equal symbiotic” relationship due to their different development policies. Why depend much on other languages?? Java did a right thing to bring all together to one platform and is ruling (better than C#) like a king.

Python needn’t fear java if it has faster run-time. As per animal rules, If python is not having speed nor highest power, it must survive due to a group. That is what I call python community.

I will get back to python 3.0 only when its speed is near to Java 6. (Or atleast even if it’s speed is twice slower than Java). Python is a gr8 language with many good features but success depends on speed !!Does this get to the brains of people developing python versions!!

Quote: “You shudnot market urself much. Other’s shud acknowledge that u r gr8” (This is what people call Java).

Regards,
DRY

]]> By: David Daniel Hofmann http://jens.mooseyard.com/2008/12/python-30-whats-the-point/comment-page-5/#comment-2878 David Daniel Hofmann Mon, 08 Dec 2008 15:16:01 +0000 http://mooseyard.com/Jens/2008/12/python-30-whats-the-point/#comment-2878 my 2 cents You can no rely forever in something that was good enough 20 years ago And as always, it is just a matter of time to improve performance, and about compatibility issues, actually should be see as an opportunity to migrate to a better API :) my 2 cents

You can no rely forever in something that was good enough 20 years ago

And as always, it is just a matter of time to improve performance, and about compatibility issues, actually should be see as an opportunity to migrate to a better API :)

]]> By: Lennart Regebro http://jens.mooseyard.com/2008/12/python-30-whats-the-point/comment-page-5/#comment-2877 Lennart Regebro Sun, 07 Dec 2008 04:59:21 +0000 http://mooseyard.com/Jens/2008/12/python-30-whats-the-point/#comment-2877 Paul: "This assumes that all major enhancements to the Python 3.x implementation will be backported" No, it assumes that more of the enhancements will be backported than new ones added, which is exactly what will happen. "There will come a time when people will decide that it’s not worth backporting stuff to 2.x, the hope being that no-one will care about 2.x at that point." Yes, obviously the goal is that 2.x in the long run will become less used. "What should we call them, then? Dialects? I don’t think euphemisms soften the blow, personally. " It's still the same language, the syntax differences are small (but incompatible). The standard library has been reorganized, but that hardly makes it a different language. Different versions of Basic has bigger differences than this. Different versions of C is more incompatible than this. Patrick: "This makes me feel like I’ll wake up in three years and ask myself whether I should look at this situation again to see if it’s time to get serious about 3.0 with our codebbase or not. " Well, one or two years, I would guess, but otherwise you are spot on. Paul: “This assumes that all major enhancements to the Python 3.x implementation will be backported”

No, it assumes that more of the enhancements will be backported than new ones added, which is exactly what will happen.

“There will come a time when people will decide that it’s not worth backporting stuff to 2.x, the hope being that no-one will care about 2.x at that point.”

Yes, obviously the goal is that 2.x in the long run will become less used.

“What should we call them, then? Dialects? I don’t think euphemisms soften the blow, personally. “

It’s still the same language, the syntax differences are small (but incompatible). The standard library has been reorganized, but that hardly makes it a different language. Different versions of Basic has bigger differences than this. Different versions of C is more incompatible than this.

Patrick: “This makes me feel like I’ll wake up in three years and ask myself whether I should look at this situation again to see if it’s time to get serious about 3.0 with our codebbase or not. “

Well, one or two years, I would guess, but otherwise you are spot on.

]]> By: Patrick http://jens.mooseyard.com/2008/12/python-30-whats-the-point/comment-page-5/#comment-2876 Patrick Sun, 07 Dec 2008 00:08:47 +0000 http://mooseyard.com/Jens/2008/12/python-30-whats-the-point/#comment-2876 Thanks all for participating. All that was very interesting and I even learned some things here and there. Since we won't be moving to 3.0 for a long time because we depend on a number of large libs like Numpy, Twisted, Beautiful Soup, Wx, SQLAlchemy, etc, I am only hoping that the large amount of visibility the 3.0 release is generating will get the lib developers to at least publish their 3.0 plans. I often can't tell if they plan to get to 3.0, or when, whether it be 6mo. or 5 years. This makes me feel like I'll wake up in three years and ask myself whether I should look at this situation again to see if it's time to get serious about 3.0 with our codebbase or not. Thanks all for participating. All that was very interesting and I even learned some things here and there.

Since we won’t be moving to 3.0 for a long time because we depend on a number of large libs like Numpy, Twisted, Beautiful Soup, Wx, SQLAlchemy, etc, I am only hoping that the large amount of visibility the 3.0 release is generating will get the lib developers to at least publish their 3.0 plans. I often can’t tell if they plan to get to 3.0, or when, whether it be 6mo. or 5 years. This makes me feel like I’ll wake up in three years and ask myself whether I should look at this situation again to see if it’s time to get serious about 3.0 with our codebbase or not.

]]> By: Paul Boddie http://jens.mooseyard.com/2008/12/python-30-whats-the-point/comment-page-5/#comment-2875 Paul Boddie Sat, 06 Dec 2008 23:27:27 +0000 http://mooseyard.com/Jens/2008/12/python-30-whats-the-point/#comment-2875 <blockquote>As you yourself mention, there will be more backports. So in fact, they will have *increasingly* related implementations from now on.</blockquote> This assumes that all major enhancements to the Python 3.x implementation will be backported, which I seriously doubt will be the case. There will come a time when people will decide that it's not worth backporting stuff to 2.x, the hope being that no-one will care about 2.x at that point. <blockquote>And it’s not two different languages. There are a set of changes done that are done in a backwards incompatible way. That doesn’t make it two different languages.</blockquote> What should we call them, then? Dialects? I don't think euphemisms soften the blow, personally.

As you yourself mention, there will be more backports. So in fact, they will have *increasingly* related implementations from now on.

This assumes that all major enhancements to the Python 3.x implementation will be backported, which I seriously doubt will be the case. There will come a time when people will decide that it’s not worth backporting stuff to 2.x, the hope being that no-one will care about 2.x at that point.

And it’s not two different languages. There are a set of changes done that are done in a backwards incompatible way. That doesn’t make it two different languages.

What should we call them, then? Dialects? I don’t think euphemisms soften the blow, personally.

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