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	<title>Comments on: Web Frameworks vs. Hosted Environments</title>
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	<link>http://jens.mooseyard.com/2008/01/web-frameworks-vs-hosted-environments/</link>
	<description>Little boxes made of words, by Jens Alfke</description>
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		<title>By: Paul Stringer</title>
		<link>http://jens.mooseyard.com/2008/01/web-frameworks-vs-hosted-environments/comment-page-1/#comment-2164</link>
		<dc:creator>Paul Stringer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 Jan 2008 16:34:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mooseyard.com/Jens/2008/01/web-frameworks-vs-hosted-environments/#comment-2164</guid>
		<description>WebObjects FTW!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>WebObjects FTW!</p>
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		<title>By: Mike "Utsaha"</title>
		<link>http://jens.mooseyard.com/2008/01/web-frameworks-vs-hosted-environments/comment-page-1/#comment-2163</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike "Utsaha"</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Jan 2008 15:18:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mooseyard.com/Jens/2008/01/web-frameworks-vs-hosted-environments/#comment-2163</guid>
		<description>One word... WebObjects.  Quick, run away!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One word&#8230; WebObjects.  Quick, run away!</p>
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		<title>By: Philip Weaver</title>
		<link>http://jens.mooseyard.com/2008/01/web-frameworks-vs-hosted-environments/comment-page-1/#comment-2162</link>
		<dc:creator>Philip Weaver</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 13 Jan 2008 20:39:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mooseyard.com/Jens/2008/01/web-frameworks-vs-hosted-environments/#comment-2162</guid>
		<description>There are a number of virtual private server VPS hosting providers where you can host most anything for around 20 bucks. I am using http://www.silverrack.com to host JavaScript apps on the server side using Helma. SliceHost (http://www.slicehost.com) is another option.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There are a number of virtual private server VPS hosting providers where you can host most anything for around 20 bucks. I am using <a href="http://www.silverrack.com" rel="nofollow">http://www.silverrack.com</a> to host JavaScript apps on the server side using Helma. SliceHost (<a href="http://www.slicehost.com" rel="nofollow">http://www.slicehost.com</a>) is another option.</p>
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	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Joe Heck</title>
		<link>http://jens.mooseyard.com/2008/01/web-frameworks-vs-hosted-environments/comment-page-1/#comment-2161</link>
		<dc:creator>Joe Heck</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 12 Jan 2008 03:08:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mooseyard.com/Jens/2008/01/web-frameworks-vs-hosted-environments/#comment-2161</guid>
		<description>I&#039;ve been involved in the Django community rather than Rails, but I&#039;ve got to say that I&#039;ve hard actually very good luck getting my web-app code up and running in shared environments. I&#039;ve used WebFaction and TextDrive, and they were slightly different, but both pretty straightforward to make &quot;work&quot;.

There&#039;s the usual problems with &quot;you get what you pay for&quot; - a $9.95/mo account isn&#039;t going to nessecarily have amazing realibility (there was a month when I was ready to shoot TextDrive because the system reliability was so crappy) - but the functionality was all there. Since you focused on Rails, I&#039;ll assume you&#039;re headed more in that direction for your own interests, but if you&#039;d like to talk specifics about setup and operation of Django based sites, I&#039;d be more than happy to share with you.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ve been involved in the Django community rather than Rails, but I&#8217;ve got to say that I&#8217;ve hard actually very good luck getting my web-app code up and running in shared environments. I&#8217;ve used WebFaction and TextDrive, and they were slightly different, but both pretty straightforward to make &#8220;work&#8221;.</p>
<p>There&#8217;s the usual problems with &#8220;you get what you pay for&#8221; - a $9.95/mo account isn&#8217;t going to nessecarily have amazing realibility (there was a month when I was ready to shoot TextDrive because the system reliability was so crappy) - but the functionality was all there. Since you focused on Rails, I&#8217;ll assume you&#8217;re headed more in that direction for your own interests, but if you&#8217;d like to talk specifics about setup and operation of Django based sites, I&#8217;d be more than happy to share with you.</p>
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		<title>By: James</title>
		<link>http://jens.mooseyard.com/2008/01/web-frameworks-vs-hosted-environments/comment-page-1/#comment-2160</link>
		<dc:creator>James</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 Jan 2008 05:26:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mooseyard.com/Jens/2008/01/web-frameworks-vs-hosted-environments/#comment-2160</guid>
		<description>Media Temple has Rails running in their grid containers, with some utilities to manage the lifecycle of each Rails &quot;application&quot; that you&#039;ve set up in the container.

I couldn&#039;t tell you exactly how it is implemented, but I know a container is a sort of a stripped down virtual machine (e.g. you have very little control over the environment or software it runs within, which is a good thing in terms of them managing security updates &#038; so forth).

Essentially you get a guaranteed allocation of memory, CPU &#038; bandwidth for your container, with all the Unix server configuration and processes hidden from your container. The only thing in your container that you can see is the actual Rails applications.

Engine Yard does something similar.

If they can pull it off, surely DreamHost can as well, or perhaps DreamHost doesn&#039;t have the engineering resources to do it if it isn&#039;t bog standard Apache style hosting - Who knows.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Media Temple has Rails running in their grid containers, with some utilities to manage the lifecycle of each Rails &#8220;application&#8221; that you&#8217;ve set up in the container.</p>
<p>I couldn&#8217;t tell you exactly how it is implemented, but I know a container is a sort of a stripped down virtual machine (e.g. you have very little control over the environment or software it runs within, which is a good thing in terms of them managing security updates &#38;#38; so forth).</p>
<p>Essentially you get a guaranteed allocation of memory, CPU &#38;#38; bandwidth for your container, with all the Unix server configuration and processes hidden from your container. The only thing in your container that you can see is the actual Rails applications.</p>
<p>Engine Yard does something similar.</p>
<p>If they can pull it off, surely DreamHost can as well, or perhaps DreamHost doesn&#8217;t have the engineering resources to do it if it isn&#8217;t bog standard Apache style hosting - Who knows.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Jens Alfke</title>
		<link>http://jens.mooseyard.com/2008/01/web-frameworks-vs-hosted-environments/comment-page-1/#comment-2159</link>
		<dc:creator>Jens Alfke</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Jan 2008 18:32:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mooseyard.com/Jens/2008/01/web-frameworks-vs-hosted-environments/#comment-2159</guid>
		<description>@John: Isn&#039;t it possible to run multiple instances of the Ruby VM, with independent class tables, etc., in a single process? Or does Ruby use global state?

@Abundance: Thanks for the tip — I&#039;ve just watched &quot;WebFaction&quot;:http://www.webfaction.com/ &#039;s screencasts and their support for Rails and other app servers looks amazing. I&#039;m very tempted to sign up.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@John: Isn&#8217;t it possible to run multiple instances of the Ruby VM, with independent class tables, etc., in a single process? Or does Ruby use global state?</p>
<p>@Abundance: Thanks for the tip — I&#8217;ve just watched &#8220;WebFaction&#8221;:<a href="http://www.webfaction.com/" rel="nofollow">http://www.webfaction.com/</a> &#8216;s screencasts and their support for Rails and other app servers looks amazing. I&#8217;m very tempted to sign up.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Abundance Affordance</title>
		<link>http://jens.mooseyard.com/2008/01/web-frameworks-vs-hosted-environments/comment-page-1/#comment-2158</link>
		<dc:creator>Abundance Affordance</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Jan 2008 08:55:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mooseyard.com/Jens/2008/01/web-frameworks-vs-hosted-environments/#comment-2158</guid>
		<description>&lt;strong&gt;Web Frameworks&nbsp;Hosting...&lt;/strong&gt;

I have to take the opportunity  to plug WebFaction as a satisfied customer. They do hosting for all manner of dynamic languages, (including Python/PHP/Rails) Subversion, etc. Their latest service modifications to allow unlimited domains, websites, pro...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>Web Frameworks&#38;nbsp;Hosting&#8230;</strong></p>
<p>I have to take the opportunity  to plug WebFaction as a satisfied customer. They do hosting for all manner of dynamic languages, (including Python/PHP/Rails) Subversion, etc. Their latest service modifications to allow unlimited domains, websites, pro&#8230;</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: John Douthat</title>
		<link>http://jens.mooseyard.com/2008/01/web-frameworks-vs-hosted-environments/comment-page-1/#comment-2157</link>
		<dc:creator>John Douthat</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Jan 2008 04:54:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mooseyard.com/Jens/2008/01/web-frameworks-vs-hosted-environments/#comment-2157</guid>
		<description>Ooops! I missed the last paragraph of your post.

There exists an Apache module called mod_ruby, which works similarly to mod_python, mod_perl, or mod_php. The reason it is not used in production is because of the open nature of the Ruby language. In Ruby, one can open existing classes and change their behavior, even in the core classes. Because applications may freely modify the core classes (or any other classes, for that matter), and because the environment is long-lived, it opens up a Pandora&#039;s box of security and compatibility problems. There have been some attempts to solve that problem though, and allow a Ruby process to be shared without having to share the execution environment. Google &quot;ruby sandbox&quot; for some examples. It certainly is a solvable problem, but unfortunately, the solution just hasn&#039;t been created yet.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ooops! I missed the last paragraph of your post.</p>
<p>There exists an Apache module called mod_ruby, which works similarly to mod_python, mod_perl, or mod_php. The reason it is not used in production is because of the open nature of the Ruby language. In Ruby, one can open existing classes and change their behavior, even in the core classes. Because applications may freely modify the core classes (or any other classes, for that matter), and because the environment is long-lived, it opens up a Pandora&#8217;s box of security and compatibility problems. There have been some attempts to solve that problem though, and allow a Ruby process to be shared without having to share the execution environment. Google &#8220;ruby sandbox&#8221; for some examples. It certainly is a solvable problem, but unfortunately, the solution just hasn&#8217;t been created yet.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: John Douthat</title>
		<link>http://jens.mooseyard.com/2008/01/web-frameworks-vs-hosted-environments/comment-page-1/#comment-2156</link>
		<dc:creator>John Douthat</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Jan 2008 04:47:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mooseyard.com/Jens/2008/01/web-frameworks-vs-hosted-environments/#comment-2156</guid>
		<description>Rails&#039; sweet spot in when you can run relatively few apps per server, e.g. 37 signals has only a few apps, twitter is a single app that has its own fleet of servers, etc... The standard Rails deployment model, i.e. long running processes with lots of memory doesn&#039;t jive well with many shared hosts, because, well, RAM and CPU are costly, and shared hosting accounts are cheap. Having dozens or even hundreds of Rails applications running on a server leaves both the servers and the applications running slowly. That causes the host to lose money, because they either alienate their customers because of the load on their servers, or they have to decrease the number of users per server.

(I am both a Dreamhost subscriber and a Rails developer, however, I avoid running any Rails applications on Dreamhost)

You mentioned that Python suffers the same fate. However, Python (including Django) can use mod_python.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Rails&#8217; sweet spot in when you can run relatively few apps per server, e.g. 37 signals has only a few apps, twitter is a single app that has its own fleet of servers, etc&#8230; The standard Rails deployment model, i.e. long running processes with lots of memory doesn&#8217;t jive well with many shared hosts, because, well, RAM and CPU are costly, and shared hosting accounts are cheap. Having dozens or even hundreds of Rails applications running on a server leaves both the servers and the applications running slowly. That causes the host to lose money, because they either alienate their customers because of the load on their servers, or they have to decrease the number of users per server.</p>
<p>(I am both a Dreamhost subscriber and a Rails developer, however, I avoid running any Rails applications on Dreamhost)</p>
<p>You mentioned that Python suffers the same fate. However, Python (including Django) can use mod_python.</p>
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